Sacred Moments: Human connection in health care and well-being

View Transcript

In this episode, Dr. Sanjay Saint, Chief of Medicine at the VA Ann Arbor and the George Dock Professor of Internal Medicine at U-M, features as guest. Saint’s Sacred Moments Initiative highlights emotionally profound connections between patients and caregivers.

These moments — where time slows and humanity shines — combat burnout and remind clinicians why they entered healthcare. Inspired by both research and personal stories, like a dying veteran thanking a student or a small act of kindness on a pickleball court, Saint emphasizes creating environments and cultures that invite presence and healing. Through reflection rounds, storytelling, and even architectural redesign, the initiative seeks to normalize, preserve, and celebrate these transformative human experiences in medical care.

Resources

• Sacred Moments Initiative
• Sanjay Saint, M.D., M.P.H.
• Research paper: Sacred Moment Experiences Among Internal Medicine Physicians
• Research paper: Making Room for Meaningful Moments in Medicine—Prioritizing Continuity and Relationships

Learn more about how the Office of Well-Being aids it team members and brings a culture of belonging, resilience and support.

Transcript

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Welcome to the Wellbeing at Michigan Medicine Podcast. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Harry, and I'm thrilled to have Dr. Sanjay Saint with us today. Dr. Saint is the Chief of Medicine at the VA Ann Arbor Healthcare System, the George Dock Professor of Internal Medicine at the University of Michigan and executive director for the Sacred Moments Initiative. Dr. Saint describes sacred moments as short spans of time in which people experience personal connection, powerful emotions, or spiritual qualities of transcendence and boundlessness. Sometimes referred to as sudden intimacies, sacred moments can occur at times of crisis or grief and can connect people in unexpected and meaningful ways. These highly memorable moments where time is described to stand still, leave participants with a sense of joy, peace, and empathy for the others involved. I'm so excited to discuss these and thank you so much for joining us today, Dr. Saint. Can I call you Sanjay?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yes, you can.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

This is wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Could you begin by sharing a bit about your journey just in general in medicine, and what led you to this topic of sacred moments within the healthcare environment?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yeah, happy to, Liz. Well, first of all, my background. I was born in Kenya, moved to this country when I was young, and then grew up in California. And when I went to college, I wanted to be a sociologist, and my parents lovingly guided me towards medicine.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

As they often do.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

But much of my research and much of the work I've done is that of someone who wanted to be a sociologist. So I've combined those approaches though with the physician's eye of, how can we improve things? How can we make things better? I came to the University of Michigan about 27 years ago to start my academic career, and as you mentioned, now I'm Chief of Medicine at the VA Ann Arbor, and realized that while my initial focus was on preventing hospital-acquired complications, which very important like bloodstream infections and urinary tract infections, I also realized that while that's important from a technical point of view, patients and families and even clinicians, that's not sufficient. That patients need more and actually we need more. And that's when I started getting interested in some more of the humanistic aspects of taking care of patients. I'd always been taught that in medical school and in residency, but now that I'm overseeing a medicine service, how can we create an environment where the humanism is as important as the technical prowess?

In terms of the Sacred Moments Initiative, it started when I went to a talk by Ken Pargament. He's a professor of psychology at Bowling Green State University, and he introduced the concept of sacred moments. It's the first time I'd ever heard of it, it was in 2019. And it just struck me because I'd had some of these experiences before as a clinician and I didn't have a terminology for it. And I went up to Ken afterwards and asked him if this had ever been studied, and his study was in the therapeutic relationship between a psychologist and clients.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

I see.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

And I asked him, "Had this ever been studied in the inpatient setting among physicians or nurses and patients and families?" He said, "I don't think so." So we sought to study it. That's the beauty about being at the University of Michigan is to create and disseminate knowledge. So we did a study led by Martha Quinn, who's in the School of Public Health, where we interviewed doctors and nurses as well as patients who had been discharged from either the University of Michigan or the VA in Arbor, and asked them about sacred moments and if they had experienced it. And in fact, almost all of them had.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Wow.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

And we also found out that people tend not to talk about them. So we decided to launch this initiative about a year ago when I got some funding from the VA in order to kind of normalize the experience of having sacred moments and being able to discuss it openly with professional colleagues.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

When you were doing this research and specifically asking people about these sacred moments, could you give us some examples of these sacred moments? What were some stories that people told you?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

The story that I experienced, that I thought about when Professor Pargament was describing sacred moments. So this happened about a decade ago, and it was a veteran in his 50s who was a house painter. And every time he painted with his right arm above his head, he noticed that his face would flush. He would have difficulty breathing, but did not notice that with his left arm. So he did that for a while, but then he also noticed that he was losing weight and coughing up blood, and he was a long-term smoker, so he thought he should get this checked out. And the clinicians who were listening to this kind of know where I'm going with this, he had a type of tumor called Pancoast tumor, and it ended up being small cell lung cancer that had been widely disseminated by the time he came to see us.

And he was admitted to our service and service as an attending physician. I happened to serve as the attending, a senior resident, few interns and several medical students from the University of Michigan. And our students are assigned to our patients, and one of our students was assigned to this gentleman. And we had to, of course, get the test done in a very timely manner, get consultants, have the lung doctors and the cancer doctors see him and give him his options about chemotherapy, which would've given him probably several months. But he chose to forego chemotherapy and go home. He did not like hospitals, and he also loved playing the guitar. And he was newly married and he wanted to go home, play Knocking on Heaven's Door for his wife, and have hospice. So as we were saying goodbye to him after his several day hospital stay, he thanked us for the care we provided him, and he specifically went to the medical student, his name was Ethan, and said, "Ethan, I'd like to thank you for being a warrior for me."

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Wow.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

"You got the test done, because you know I didn't want to be here a day longer than I had to, and I really appreciate it." And I ended up writing Ethan a letter for residency, and we talked about this and Ethan said that of the various experiences he had had as a medical student, this one really stood out because even though we didn't cure him, he felt as if he could really make a difference in this individual's life and it stuck with him. And so when Ken was talking about sacred moments, I remember when this veteran called out the person who's lowest on the totem pole and to thank him for what he did. So for me, that was sacred.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Yeah, yeah. Wow. I mean, it gives me goosebumps just listening to it because it does. It reminds you of those moments that you have that are the reason you came into this field. The reason you chose to be a doctor or the reason you decided to be a healthcare provider in general, and that connection with other humans and the ability to connect on a level that doesn't often happen outside of healthcare. And so I'm wondering, we think a lot about burnout and how to help people with their well-being in healthcare. How do you think these sacred moments impact the growing dialogue around burnout?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

I mean, the issue with burnout preceded COVID and was accentuated by COVID with various studies done nationally and even internationally, sacred moments and others have called these sudden intimacies or high quality connections. They go by kind of different terms, but we'll just stick with sacred moments for the time being. I think it does help. I can tell you anecdotally, it helps me when I have one of these experiences, it reminds me of why I went to healthcare and the privilege I have to take care of patients often on the worst days of their life. And some of the other aspects of daily life becomes much less important when I think about these experiences and even sharing this experience right now, I'm transported back to 10 years ago in that hospital room.

And I'm reminded that regardless of what may be going on in the broader society, we as physicians, nurses, social workers, psychologists, are able to provide a gift to patients who come to us in their time of need. And even if we can't cure them, we can alleviate some anxiety. We can remove some of their burden. When that happens, it doesn't matter your title, it doesn't matter your office, it doesn't matter your parking spot or any of those things, you just feel fortunate that you're in the position to help someone during their time of need.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

It really does come down to this concept of connection between two humans and that connection point, it seems could be between a caregiver and the patient, but could also be on the interdisciplinary team between two caregivers. And I'm curious, in your initiative, are you seeing those sorts of moments or hearing stories about that?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

One of the things that we've done as part of the Sacred Moments Initiative is something called a Sacred Story Hub, where people can essentially put in their stories of sacred moments. And so even though we're focusing on sacred moments in the healthcare setting, because that's what we know best, sacred moments occur everywhere. It occurs when you teach someone. We've written about sacred moments during a mentoring experience. Sacred moments during research. And I'll give you another example of a sacred moment that actually happened on the pickleball court. So I am an avid pickleball player, got supercharged during COVID, and I was playing at Meri Lou Rec Center, which is a rec center here in Ann Arbor. And there what happens is there are four courts and you put your paddle into kind of a box, and then when there are four people's paddles there, then you're the next people up on the court and each court has a different box for the paddles.

And I had put my paddle in a different court and I was talking to my buddy, Tony, who had a paddle in with two other people. So there was one opening and another one of our picklepals came in, name was Frank. And Frank was much older and had suffered a lot of medical issues. He'd had some strokes in the past, didn't move so well, but he loved playing pickleball. And his wife would drop him off and pick him up. And so Frank is looking and the only open box was the one with Tony. But Frank said, "Who else is playing with you, Tony?" And Tony mentioned the other people's names.

He goes, "Oh, they're too good for me. So I'm a little nervous about that." And Tony said, "Frank, why don't you put your paddle in and I'll be your partner?" He said, "Really? You're okay with that?" He goes, "Yeah, of course. I would really enjoy that." So in fact, that's what happened. And so they played and I noticed that, and I went off and played my game and didn't think anything of it until a few months later, and this is in the middle of COVID, when we got an email from Frank's wife letting us know that he had died and wanted to thank his picklepals for making him feel always welcome.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Oh, wow.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

And I remembered that story with Tony, and next time I saw Tony, I said, "Man, I remember you did that." And he said, "Yeah, I remember that as well." I said, "That could have been one of the last times Frank ever played."

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Wow.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

And that you made a difference in his life. And so that's a sacred moment that occurred on a pickleball court. So I suspect that caregivers and family members and others certainly could have these, and we would love to hear those stories.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Oh, that's amazing. I'm thinking about the outcome of these sacred moments. I'm thinking about the impact. And the impact is on a very deep human level. It can be a connection like you saw with your medical student and the patient, maybe even protection or advocacy, the sense of this, I love this idea of being my warrior. It could be kind of compassion and connection with your fellow human at a different time in life. I'm curious, as you listen to some of these stories, what are the themes that you pick up that are the positive outcomes or benefits of these moments?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

The way we think about these sacred moments, and actually comes from a lot of the work that Ken Pargament and Martha Quinn and others have done, is there are certain qualities of sacred moments. So one, there's a sense of transcendence. You go beyond just the here and now you really feel like you're boundless and part of something much larger. There's also this sense that time stands still, and the Greeks call this kairos, qualitative time, the perfect moment as opposed to kronos, which is just minute by minute, hour by hour. And usually in healthcare, we're constantly looking at our watches or our phones and seeing, "Oh, we've got to get this done in this period of time." But when these moments occur, times stands still. And then what ends up happening is you also have this sense of ultimacy, this sense that this is real. You're not going through the motion. You're not an actor in a play. It's not kabuki, it's as real as it gets. And then what tends to follow is this sense of peace, a sense of joy, a sense of understanding and gratitude that you got to experience this.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

At least just listening to the stories that you've described, that connection is one of them too, that it would combat our sense that we can often feel really isolated. And there's growing literature around that also in healthcare. And it seems like these moments really touch at the ability to connect one human to another. Is that something that you're seeing as well?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yeah, I think absolutely. Dr. Keltner from Berkeley wrote a book called Awe, and he talks about different aspects of awe. One of course is in nature. Another is when one sees moral beauty. And when I think of that, it's thinking of the firefighters and NYPD going into buildings on 9/11 when others were running the opposite direction. I mean, to see that. It's what our veterans did for us in various places around the world, it's moral beauty. A third is collective effervescence. So this is what happens, of course, when we watch Michigan beat Ohio State four years in a row or when we are at church or synagogue or temples and we are chanting or singing together. But I think this fourth is this sense of deep interpersonal connection that gives you this sense of awe.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

You highlighted a little bit of the antithesis of these moments that can be really common in healthcare, where we're checking our watches, we feel very pressured by time. We can be very task-oriented or feeling the running list in our head. And so if someone's listening to this and they're thinking, "That sounds amazing, and I've had a couple of those moments, but I'd like to have more of those moments in my life." Do you have some sort of practical tips for people to cultivate these types of experiences?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yeah, I'll tell you what I think about both from just a personal perspective and then also in charge of a medicine service. I think from a personal perspective, I want to make sure that internally, I'm available and open to having these moments. So that would mean starting off my day with whether it's personal reflection or meditation or prayer, just so when I wake up, the first thing I don't do is go to my phone and see what the text messages are or the emails. So the day doesn't necessarily start immediately. It's thinking about what I dreamt about or just reflecting on the upcoming day, but in a way where I'm able to kind of center myself and ground myself. So whatever may happen, I'll have the ability to respond in a thoughtful, measured way as opposed to being reactive. When I see patients and wash my hands before I see them, is to try to wash my hands mindfully.

So we use an automated product and it makes a noise. And for me, that's the reminder that while this may be one of 15 patients I see during rounds, for the next 10 minutes, this is arguably what they are going to remember. As a hospitalist, this is when the attending comes in with their team, and I'll come into a patient's room and they'll be on the phone and they'll say, "Got to go, doctor's here." We've all had that experience. And so for me to be fully present, not thinking about the previous patient I saw, the next patient I saw, what else is going on, but I'm all in right now. And I think the third part of that is making sure that I'm seated at eye level, because conversations with patients, whether it's in the clinic or especially in the hospital, often will stand up looking down at a patient. It's an unfortunate dynamic. You're in a very thin gown, you're exposed, you've got eight people looking down at you, especially if you've had issues with PTSD or anxiety, that can be challenging.

So we have made sure that we have folding chairs in all of the rooms at our VA hospital so that it's easier for people who's directing the interaction with the patient to be seated at eye level. And then that really gets me to the final thing, and that is, so how do we create, so those are all individual aspects, but how do we create a clinical milieu where it's more likely for sacred moments to occur? And so we're working with our school of architecture here at the University of Michigan to design a hospital room that allows for this.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

And what does that look like or what does that mean?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Well, we are still kind of in the design phase and they're doing virtual reality testing, but there's a museum and church in Florence called the Museum of San Marco, and Fra Angelico was there, and he's got frescoes in all of the different cells or rooms where the monks would live, and they would then dwell on these frescoes during their long hours that they were there and they were biblical scenes. In many hospital rooms. The rooms themselves are not necessarily therapeutic. Of course, the noises, we've talked about that, shared rooms. But even what's on the wall and the type of lighting, fluorescent lighting versus other types of lighting, it doesn't lead necessarily to helping them heal.

What if we created hospital rooms where the goal was to help them heal and to get a good night's sleep and to feel good about their surroundings, similar to when we go to a hotel where they thought about Feng shui and other types of things. That can also provide medical care, of course. And so that's what Jonathan Rule, who's one of the professors in the architectural school and his colleagues are trying to help us with, and we actually have a grant through the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality to study this. But then it also requires clinicians to have time to be able to do this. And that is the challenge, so that their cognitive load is not something that overwhelms them so that they're not internally available for having sacred moments when those moments occur.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

There's literature to support too, healing time when patients can see outside, when they have a window and they can see outside and see some nature. And so really excited to learn more about where this project goes. And I love that you bring up the cognitive load piece. As you know, I am very interested in this, and a lot of what I'm hearing you say is that we have to be very intentional about where we place our attention throughout the day. And one of the things that we talk a lot about when we think about cognitive load is many years ago, the advice was sort of make sure you prioritize the things that are of most important and highest value in your life. And there's that kind of classic Stephen Covey example where he has the big bowl, and if you put the sand in first, then the pebbles, then the big rocks, it won't fit.

But if you put the big rocks in and then the pebbles and then the sand, it'll all fit nicely. And what I sort of joke about now is there's a great study from a couple years ago showing that if a primary care provider were to provide evidence-based medicine to an average panel size, it would take 26 hours a day. And of course, we don't have 26 hours a day. And so I sort of joke with people that we can't even fit all the big rocks anymore, and that we have to have honest discussions with ourselves, with our colleagues, with our teams, with our families, about which big rocks are we going to pick because they don't all fit. Because I don't have 26 hours a day and I do have other big rocks like sleeping and eating and seeing my family.

And so as you think about our teams that are overloaded and that have more big rocks than there is space anymore in the bucket, how do you personally, or how would you recommend them building a practice that can allow them to continually refocus to make space for these moments? Because I think it's so easy to find yourself in a situation where days, weeks, months have gone by and you haven't had space for any of these moments or reflection because of the nature of how things are structured.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yeah, I think this is a challenge for all of us, is a challenge for us as individual clinicians, challenge for healthcare workers, and challenge for healthcare organizations. What I recommend when I have mentees who ask me about these types of things is to find a position with an organization where their north star is aligned with your own north star. Some people would say that you find an organization where you have mission alignment. For me, that's why I work at the VA. I have alignment with the mission of the VA to take care of America's veterans and to provide them superb care. And part of it is, I think because I'm an immigrant to this country, and if not for those men and women who served, my family wouldn't have been able to come here. And there are many of us who work at the VA who feel that exact same way.

And if you have mission alignment, then you make sure that the jobs hopefully will be able to, will allow for those big rocks that are important. So that panel size will allow for having sacred moments and having sufficient time. Where if you're doing inpatient work, the number of patients that you see will not be so overwhelming that you will barely able to spend a few minutes every day with each individual hospitalized patients, which sometimes occurs. That you'll have time when a family comes to visit and they want to speak to the doctor, that you can actually go to the bedside, speak to the family, speak to the patient, sit down and answer their questions. And part of it is also that the organization supports a team-based approach.

That you have a patient-centered medical home, we call it a PACT team at the VA. In the inpatient setting, that you have care coordinators and others who can kind of help with some of the administrative tasks. And so as long as there's mission alignment, while it may not be the ideal job immediately, but if you're finding that the cognitive load is so high or the workload really prevents you from providing the type of care that you would want if this was your family member, then at least you're able to go to your supervisor and say that there's a little bit of a disconnect between how we want to be and how things are and what can I do to kind of help close this gap.

And if you find that, yep, you have a supervisor who understands that and realizes and is working on it, and then hopefully there'll be realignment, that's terrific. And sometimes it can take a while, but if you find that this is a chronic problem and it's maybe getting worse with time and that you've tried to fix it and it's not getting better, then it's a difficult decision because then you have to think, well, is there an organization that I could go to where there is going to be that alignment?

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

What I appreciate about what you're saying is that it's a locus of control. It's trying to identify organizations where your mission, vision, values align with that of the organization. And we know that's a measure that we've looked at in relationship with burnout and has a strong correlation and interestingly, is a measure that's able to be impacted. So if we do our own sort of mental fitness work, if we do our own metacognitive work or coaching, we've seen that measure move, which is really interesting too because sometimes we can feel like there's lack of alignment and that can be a perspective or a mindset that we can actually shift and find ways that there are alignment or see people that are working really hard on things that we may not have seen before. And so I love the idea of how are you part of the solution too?

How do you join the leaders and the teams in trying to solve these because they are very complex problems with a lot of competing priorities. The other piece that I love about what you're saying is there's so many small moments throughout the day where we have control that we can insert this stillness or this quiet. And I've taken to recently in between some of my clinic sessions, just going on a quick walk in the arboretum and it just resets the whole day. And it might mean that I eat my food a little less mindfully and in between patients perhaps, but it really can create a lot of space for that reflection or that resetting. And so thinking about where can it come externally? And then also a lot of times I think we have more control than we think we do in our local environment in inserting these things.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yeah, I completely agree. And in fact, one of the things that we've tried to do is also to normalize speaking about sacred moments with professional colleagues. And we've pilot tested this. They're called reflection rounds.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Oh, wow.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Led by Nate Houchens and Martha Quinn. We've done it a couple of times at the VA. We're going to do it also at the University of Michigan where during the noon hour we invite attending physicians to come. We give them a little background about what sacred moments are. The facilitator essentially shares a sacred moment with the participants and then invites the participants to share their own sacred moments. And what you find initially, maybe there's a little bit of hesitancy because these are our professional colleagues, and this is not something that we usually discuss.

In fact, we did a national survey that found among general internists who both are in the inpatient, outpatient setting, that two-thirds of them have had sacred moments, but only about 5% of them regularly or always talk about it with professional colleagues. But once one person shares, then the floodgates open, because most of us have had these and then we've normalized discussing this. And again, the other aspect of this, and Ken Pargament has talked about this, are vicarious sacred moments. So if you shared with me a sacred moment that you had in the clinic setting, even though I wasn't physically there, emotionally and psychologically, I hear it, I incorporate it, and then I'm uplifted because of the sacred moment you had and that you felt safe enough to share.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Wow, I love that. And I love this creating vulnerability and psychological safety around this very human and raw experience that I expect benefits not only the person sharing, but receiving and also our patients that are receiving care in this much more present way. So I'm curious, what are you excited about in this field, in this space? What are you looking forward to and what are you excited to see in the future?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

What most excites me is that once the Sacred Moments Initiative takes off, that it makes it okay for young people who are coming up in healthcare to say that, "That's what I want to be a part of. That's why I went into medicine or nursing or social work or whatever it may be. But during training or during my initial stages of work, I lost some of that." So this may inoculate people from that, or if they find themselves feeling burnt out or overwhelmed that they can say, "Well, this is a movement." Or, "This is a group of people who have experienced what I've experienced and they're giving me some tools and tips and tricks to kind of maintain that humanity." And eventually, if our architectural design of the ideal hospital that allows for sacred moments seems to make a difference, then that becomes kind of the standard hospital room and we could then expand it to the clinic settings or long-term care or other types of places.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Oh, that's so exciting. Well, do you have any parting advice or insights for our listeners, particularly if people are feeling like they're navigating sort of turbulent times either personally or professionally?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

One of the things that really helps me is when I read things or I hear things that are very moving, and maybe I can end with this excerpt from a book by Richard Selzer, who's a surgeon, and I heard it from a podcast from Tara Brach, and it's called Mortal Lessons: Notes on the Art of Surgery. And this is Richard Selzer writing this. Quote, "I stand by the bed where a young woman lies, her face post-operative, her mouth twisted in palsy, clownish. A tiny twig of the facial nerve, the one to the muscles of her mouth has been severed. She will be thus from now on. The surgeon had followed with religious fervor, the curve of her flesh, I promise you that. Nevertheless, to remove the tumor in her cheek, I had to cut the little nerve. Her young husband is in the room. He stands on the opposite side of the bed, and together they seem to dwell in the evening lamplight, isolated from me, private. 'Who are they?' I ask myself, he and this wry mouth I have made who gaze at and touch each other so generously, greedily.

The young woman speaks, 'Will my mouth always be like this?' She asks. 'Yes.' I say, 'It will. It is because the nerve was cut.' She nods and is silent, but the young man smiles. 'I like it.' He says, 'It is kind of cute.' All at once, I know who he is. I understand, and I lower my gaze. One is not bold in an encounter with a god. Unmindful, he bends to kiss her crooked mouth, and I so close, I can see how he twists his own lips to accommodate to hers, to show her that their kiss still works. I remember that the gods appeared in Ancient Greece's mortals, and I hold my breath and let the wonder in."

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing, and thank you for doing this work. If people are interested in learning more, how can they reach out or learn more about this work?

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yeah, we have a website, sacredmomentsinitiative.org to do that. You could also send me an email at saint, S-A-I-N-T, @umich.edu. And if you're interested in submitting a sacred story, we have on our website The Sacred Story Hub, and would love to hear from people who are interested in this work.

Dr. Elizabeth Harry:

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming and sharing this work and for leading it. It really is amazing.

Dr. Sanjay Saint:

Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Liz.